Jamaica's real estate scene is booming. In this episode, my guest, Ruth Lacey from Proven Properties guides us through the intriguing and thriving property market of Jamaica. The allure of owning a piece of this tropical paradise is drawing not only Jamaicans living abroad but also international investors.
Also discussed in this episode:
In conclusion, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide to understanding the Jamaican property market. Whether you're a potential investor or simply interested in the dynamics of the real estate industry, the insights provided by Ruth from Proven Properties will undoubtedly prove valuable. So, whether you're looking to own a piece of The Rock or just interested in the intricacies of the real estate market, this episode is a treasure trove of knowledge.
Connect with @carryonfriends - Instagram | Facebook | YouTube
A Breadfruit Media Production
Jamaica's real estate scene is booming. In this episode, my guest, Ruth Lacey from Proven Properties guides us through the intriguing and thriving property market of Jamaica. The allure of owning a piece of this tropical paradise is drawing not only Jamaicans living abroad but also international investors.
Also discussed in this episode:
In conclusion, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide to understanding the Jamaican property market. Whether you're a potential investor or simply interested in the dynamics of the real estate industry, the insights provided by Ruth from Proven Properties will undoubtedly prove valuable. So, whether you're looking to own a piece of The Rock or just interested in the intricacies of the real estate market, this episode is a treasure trove of knowledge.
Connect with @carryonfriends - Instagram | Facebook | YouTube
A Breadfruit Media Production
Everybody welcome to another episode of Carry On Friends, the Caribbean American podcast. I am excited today because I have the lovely Ruth on the podcast. Ruth, what is going on? Welcome to Carry On Friends. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm so good. Thank you for having me, Carrie. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. So why don't you tell the community of friends a little bit about who you are, Caribbean country you represent and the work that you do?
Speaker 2:Okay, definitely representing for Jamrock Jamaica in the house. I work for a company called Proven Properties, based here in Jamaica, doing real estate investment and development in Jamaica and the Cayman Islands. So I am the head of business development and I'm excited to be here and to just share in this conversation with you today.
Speaker 1:Wonderful, so you already know why you're here. You're here to help me figure out what's this deal behind what I perceive to be real estate gold rush. Every time I go on social media and I get it it could be based on the people that I'm following. I feel like there's just a lot of posts about Jamaica. There's a lot of posts about houses, fabulous houses with nice pretty appliance and all of these things and nice pretty prices as well, and so I really want to understand what is this gold rush? That I perceive is a real estate gold rush and construction that is going on in Jamaica.
Speaker 2:I'm going to start it this way A lot has happened over the last three years that has made Jamaica a particularly interesting and lucrative market, not just for Jamaicans living in Jamaica, but for the diaspora and the international market as well. So a lot of those investors who would have flocked to a Florida market or a Cayman Islands are now recognizing that the price per square foot in Jamaica is sometimes a half or even less than what you're getting in the Florida market or the Cayman market, and so there's a deep desire to own sun, sea and sun that's never going to go away. I mean, we're Jamaicans. We know exactly what it is to be Jamaican and to be a part of the rock. So there's this desire right now to own a part of the rock, and that's not only on the north coast of Jamaica or the south coast of Jamaica.
Speaker 2:We are having international investors coming into middle Jamaica, into Mandeville, into Kingston. So is it real? I'd say it's real. It's real. The demand is there, the construction is there, the labor force is short at this point. It's a lot going on. It's an interesting and exciting time in the construction and real estate industry in Jamaica.
Speaker 1:So I guess, going back to basic, why this interest? Because, in my mind, where are they building this thing? I guess the first question that comes to mind is the environment, right, and we think of Jamaica and its beauty. Are we leveling places that could be for our own sustainability? We've seen how many places where flash flooding. That's my first thought when I come to Jamaica. Are we clearing away beautiful places to put up these big old houses? And so I guess that's my first question about maintaining Jamaica's beauty, its environment and sustainability in this construction. Real estate development, boom, yeah. So I don't know. You could tell me what your thoughts are on that?
Speaker 2:I'm going to draw on my first roots and first loves. So, before anything else, I'm an urban and regional planner. That's my studies, that's my background, and before heading over to proven properties, I actually worked with the government in development control at the National Environment and Planning Agency. So your question is really near and dear to my heart. In balancing the skills between protecting the environment but also providing the real estate assets that a country like ours need to continue to survive and build Like we're a small island developing state, which means that we're at risk for storm surges, we're at risk for flooding, we're at risk for all of these things, but at the same time, our economy needs to grow.
Speaker 2:We grew up all our lives here, we're all. We live in a third world country. We don't want to always be hearing that, and so we do need to balance the skills. And so NEPA and entities like that zone lands for particular uses. And so to your concern regarding are we tearing down everything and there'll be nothing left for our grandkids to come and see and say no, because the lands that are zone for residential are the lands that are being developed right now for the purpose of residential use.
Speaker 1:I know this is probably going out the scope, but since you mentioned it I was like, oh, that's why I'm like, I know you know urban planning and team, Because you know you know we must talk truth. We love Jamaica, but urban planning wasn't something that we've done well at. You know, in the country. You know I grew up, you know, knowing like if out of the door set up like rain going far, I need to make it home fast because this going flood out and I will never reach home Right, and it feels like in the process of building, we are maybe adopting the global north, as they call it now, standards of architecture versus architecture that would work for our environment and all of these things.
Speaker 1:So if you, if you know a little bit about that, as in terms of what proven is doing to make sure that the architecture fits, it's nice and it's modern, but it still has that like, yeah, it feels like a property that doesn't feel out of sight, you know, is it's one thing to want modern things, but are we trying to bring America to Jamaica? Are we trying to create our own vibe and style? You know what I mean, so I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 2:I would say it's we as Jamaicans. We're little, but we're Talawa, but you know, maintaining our identity is something that is extremely important to us, and at Proven Properties, we pride ourselves in ensuring that whatever development that we put on ground is very respectful to the environment that we're in, not just the neighborhood, but the tropical environment and so when we sit down and we speak to our architects, we're discussing things like placement of the buildings. Are we, are we having the larger side of the building have the most unexposure or the smaller side? Because then you're thinking about cooling, and so things like sustainability, choice of material all of these things are things that Proven Properties pride ourselves in having as very deep value proposition to our future purchases. And just to know that what we put on ground is sustainable from every aspect, from the design phase to the construction phase, we consider those things.
Speaker 1:All right, great. So yes, then the other thing. I'm sorry I'm not attacking you. I'm asking all the questions that I know my good up, good up audience is going to ask I know, as a matter of fact, I'm picturing some of them right now with their hand, kimbo asking me question. So it is the problem we see here living in the US, so I assume it will be a similar problem in Jamaica. So when all of these fancy new buildings going up to accommodate investors and the diaspora with them foreign money what does that mean for affordability for local residents down there? When it comes to the housing market, you know what I mean it's like. How is that impacting people living in Jamaica to buy a house? You know I'm from Moby and Minosa you can't buy even sand down there.
Speaker 2:So, wow, that's a good question and I can see your, your, your viewers and Kimbo for that. We aren't all developing for the same market. That's, first of all, the truth. Different developers are targeting different market segments. I don't believe that I have priced the local market at proven properties, for example, and other developers are selling us a similar price point.
Speaker 2:One of the things we also have to consider, or we consider, is that, yes, owning a piece of the rock is something extremely aspirational, but one of the things that's more important for us is building our clients wealth, wealth for them, generational wealth and real asset has become one of the most priceless ways to gain value in developing your own portfolio. So stock market goes up and down. Everything else may go up and down, and by no means are we, are we saying not to invest in all of those other avenues, but your real asset nobody taking that away from you. You're always going to have that. You have that title. That is there.
Speaker 2:That condominium is there. You're renting it. You're. You can sell it in a couple years. You're buying it in 20, 23, 20, 33. The appreciation that you've received it's just. I don't want to say it's the right way, but it's a good option and the price point where we're at. I won't agree that we are pricing out all Jamaicans. I'm not saying that affordability factor is there for everybody, but a good segment of Jamaica can still afford a unit with us.
Speaker 1:I think from a diaspora perspective, you know, because being a Jamaican, I'm going to look at it both ways. Right, but for my audience and we've had this conversation over the years their concerns come from the experiences of either their parents or grandparents or other members of the family a bill house back at Jamaica and somebody scamming and run off with the money, all the things that could go wrong. And we've heard those stories. We're not going to rehash them.
Speaker 1:And so how do you set your clients at ease, knowing that they're here and they cannot see? I mean, if you watch some of these home improvement properties, they barely can't make the owner stay away from the properties for the big reveal and the owner lived like maybe on the same property down the block. You know whatever, much less you have to take a plane to go see this property. So talk to me about some of the ways that you are proven has helped to assuage the concerns of diaspora members, mostly because I imagine non-Jamaicans and non-Caribbean people may not have the same level of anxiety or worry about a property because they may not have that experience with somebody did them wrong. You know what I mean. So talk to me about some of the ways and some of the even clients that come to you with, like crazy, you know, scamming stories that you're like, okay, we're not going to do that. I promise you there's going to be a brick and a building, completely finished.
Speaker 2:That's not us.
Speaker 1:That's not us.
Speaker 2:I completely understand and therefore we're not fully connected, but I'll say excellence, execution and leveraging technology. So, on the execution excellence, what I can see, and I'm always very proud to say it is today proven, has not started a development that we have not completed. And to have that track record is what we leverage to the diaspora, to our international purchasers, to say, hey, anything we start, we finish, we're going to give it to you. If I say I give you a total toilet, you're not going to see American standard. If I say I give you this kitchen, this is the kitchen that you're going to get Right.
Speaker 2:And in terms of leveraging technology, we have learned a lot in the last three years in home Easy to leverage it and how easy it is to put people's minds at ease.
Speaker 2:We're doing virtual walkthroughs. So a couple years back what would have happened was boy Kerry Agassin, our cousin who live in runaway Bay, figure, look on the Bahara site and see if anything really are gone. But now I can have somebody video call Kerry and say Kerry, this is your unit, how you like it, you like the view, how you feel. And so we do all of these things, we do 360 virtual walkthroughs. We enable that every weekend someone is available to you can call in and to view your unit, not just a model unit, but you've purchased unit 205. You can call and ask to view unit 205. So you know that that brick, that mortar, that steel, the toilet, the faucet, it's all there. And so those are some of the things that we've been doing and we will continue to do, to ensure that people realize yeah, all right, when I take my flight and I come in two months, I'll have a key to pushing a door and my unit is there.
Speaker 1:You know you've made a significant point, which is the big difference between then and now is the technology enablement right. You know, back in the days you're not phone card to call Jamaica, no, you have video phone to enable you know, for you to see what is actually going on. And I'm even glad that you talk about the beta and switch. That has happened and people have talked about happening. So how long is a property development? Does it depend on the number of units? You know, like, walk us through what that process looks like. You know we go by Instagram. They look pretty Like. You know, are people buying at the onset of development or after development?
Speaker 2:It varies, it truly varies. A market like Kingston people are going to buy and spec. This means that they're buying pre-construction, they're looking on a plan, they're picking their unit based solely on the plan. You haven't even broken ground yet. There's no truck, no truck that on turn, the first you know piece of dirt. Yet and, as I said, it varies. St Anne is going to be a similar thing, because those are areas where the demand is extremely high. In some other parts of Jamaica people kind of want to let me see if the wall there could go, let me see, let me see some window, let me see some paints on the wall. And so it truly varies. But at the point where we are and people being able to appreciate that appreciation is a thing. It's a thing to revalue your house and to get equity out of it, and the more people are educated they're able to appreciate these things. So people are saying, ok, let me put on my 10% because I wanted at this price. And now, when the pre-construction sale is done, so people are buying on spec. Definitely. But it does vary as we go throughout the island.
Speaker 2:I can say let me just hop over to the Cayman Islands. People buy on spec and in that particular market inventory is not as high as in Jamaica. Jamaica we have a lot of natural resources. It's a lot easier to have a quarry to get something as simple as a mural Cement. We have a whole cement factory in Jamaica. Cayman doesn't have the benefit of some of those things. So while there's a big boom in Cayman, believe me, got to Cayman Islands now. You're wowed in how the landscape has changed, but it's not at the same pace still as Jamaica. But people are definitely willing to buy on spec, buy based on what they're seeing on a plan and not waiting for it to come up, because they know, one, that inventory is going to be gone and, two, when they reprice it you're going to be paying a lot, a lot more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can imagine as you're talking, I'm thinking like affordability. I mean I don't want to put you in that spot, but I'm just like Lord, they're a dear bud. So when someone goes on Proven's IGR website and they see our property and they're like, well, I'm interested, but how do I make this happen? Walk me through you, walking through somebody like Ruth I like this thing about. I'm going to know if I can afford it and I don't know if I want to spend money and I don't know. I just don't know, but I like it. You know it's like I like it, but I don't know. Like you know, how do you help clients go through that process?
Speaker 2:This is an interesting thing that we call in sales in general the customer journey, and that's the first phase. That first phase is there's an interest, but you're not quite sure what the interest is. So, for example, take my Bahari Development in Runaway Bay not a plug, but it's beautiful and it's a mix of villas, condos and townhomes. The person is going through a phase of I don't want to say confusion, it's more questioning what exactly do I want, what is important to me? And we hold our hands through that journey from beginning to end. Right, so do I want a keep of a yard because I'm living in New York? So is a villa that I have a whole lawn to take care of and I'm going to have to be finding a landscape every other week or every week? Is that right for me? And so we ask these questions and we probe and we go through that journey with you in terms of affordability. So once we decide what is right for you in terms of the product, that's right for you. So let's say we say all right, kerry, you know what. You have kids, you're married, you want to be able to enjoy the best of both worlds. Let's move you with a three bedroom townhome. The villa look a bit too much work for you, right? No, you can't do it, you can't do it. And so the next thing we do is for you to select. What type of unit do I want? Like I said, where do I want to be in the development? Do I want to be near the entrance or do I want to be near a park so that I can walk over with my kids easily? I don't have to think about going in the car what's important to Kerry and her lifestyle and how her family functions. So after we do all of that, I was all right.
Speaker 2:Unit 205B is Kerry's unit. We look at the price and we say OK, kerry, are you in a position to purchase this cash or are you going to use financing Cash? You know that's a lot simpler for conversation. You show me, okay, you have the money, and we move on. For someone who know will have to be going through a mortgage agent or any other financial institution, they'd pay 10% to hold the unit, but in that process they would have to also present to us a pre-qualification letter. So the process is not much different than purchasing a house in the US or most other Jurisdictions, but they will have to come with a pre-qualification letter.
Speaker 2:The the great thing is, and I think the benefit is we selling US currency. You earn in US currencies in our international and diaspora clients, and the interest rates in US dollars in Jamaica right now are very competitive. So that's the process. So you. You then go to the financial institution. Is that? Are you qualified or you not? Maybe you want to join with a sister or a cousin? You know, listen, these are options. You don't have to do it alone anymore.
Speaker 1:I was just about to ask that and I'm glad you know my business, because then my next question was wait. So you're considering my kids, right, some? I said, wait, with all of this development when the schools, them there. You know like you think of school. Yet because you're building a community, so you have to think of the amenities that are required or the basic things that are required as part of a community. You know you think of school, you think of health care facilities and all of that. So is that something that is factored in when you are you're building? You know I'm spoiled.
Speaker 1:I was born and raised in Mabe, so this idea of living a saint and after drive much mile just to go to the airport, it no sit right with me at all. Right, but again, that's just me and you know this is here and that is here. But for other people, especially those who live in the US, when they they live in close proximity to some of these things like walk me through how Proven or maybe it's the state are low. In partnership with the state and the local areas that you are developing in, what are they doing to increase the bandwidth you know for for those kind of services that residents in these new developments will may or may not use.
Speaker 2:For Kingston, I mean I'd say kind of goes without saying we do have, I mean, between public clinics, private hospitals. I think Kingston, from a medical and educational and and just all the social services Kingston and one T go be, is able to very well take care of itself. Saint Anne has been going through, as I said, quite a boom in in growth and what we've seen in response to that is a lot more commercial office developments being put up. My doctor, for example, has just opened a secondary practice in Saint Anne, and so the Regulatory agencies, the Saint Anne Municipal Corporation, have also. You know, if you read the news, look on newspaper articles, they're saying, yes, residential is coming, yes, more resorts are coming, but we are encouraging the commercial and the offices to come as well in support of, you know, the future residents, is the additional tourists that will be there, and so that has been happening.
Speaker 2:I won't say it's happening at a equitable rate, by no means as yet. Sometimes one has to be the catalyst for the other. So it's happening and I think that it will. It will catch up in due time. Thank you, wonderful.
Speaker 1:I just listen, I'm if I don't ask it all the right questions or tell my curiosity for my audience, then I go deal with me proper after the. That's fine. That's fine. I love this. I'm enjoying this.
Speaker 1:It's a great conversation, I'm, but I'm just glad because you don't get these things Looking at social media, with all of the prettiness, right, it's true, and and, like you said, you know we have to consider all the options, right? So maybe me on my own can do it. But let's say, all of you put together and buy this right now. We know that certain things don't work out. So let's say me, I'm a brother, them I'll, you, I'll take use me as an example. Me, I'm a tree brother, them, I'm a mother. Put together, two by a unit, whose name going on the ownership of this thing? Is it all, all of us or five of us? Okay, okay, I just want to. I just want to make sure, because, ruth, you know all the things. Yes, the good thing is, in Jamaica you have two options.
Speaker 2:You have joint tenancy and tenancy in common and so, depending on how and I'm not an attorney, viewers, but you have the option of, should Something happen, to carry or any of the five, you have an option to ensure that your portion can independently move to your successor. So if you don't want your portion to just naturally Disiputating to the five and become equally owned by the remaining four, then you have Titling options in Jamaica so you can either up for joint tenancy, which you know that's typically recommended with a husband and wife, or Tenancy in common, where ideal for the situation that you have presented to us.
Speaker 1:Wonderful.
Speaker 2:But it sounds like it's a good option for you and your three brothers and your mama.
Speaker 1:Listen, listen and support it like a support it this, but this is what we have to do. We have a pool of money together because realistically, at least for me, like it goes back to the maintenance option. Right, if we live America, exactly why? For with a bio, four different hosts in Jamaica, right, we don't need that, unless we were very sure say off where we're moving back, and that's never a sure thing. So, you know, considering all the options, you know, maybe, maybe on this first go all four with my fs. Yo, we kind of like this. You know, make a branch out and do a thing on my own right, like those are also options to consider. Some really glad that you are not only telling us that this is an option but telling us, you know, with the very limited non-legal advice I will make that disclaimer that there is an option that you can discuss with a real estate attorney. Or when the tackling and the dating situations.
Speaker 1:And listen, I gave sister Kerry my money and I don't want sister Kerry to be the only person on this title and deed, because Family, we know how we stay. You remember your grandmother gave our sister the money to buy this. And then is when, when we find out, is only the sister name and it and grandma. They give the bulk of money like. We're done with that, we're finished with that. We are, we're smarter, we're making better financial decisions and we have. We're bringing you rules and Proven properties to give us more information, to make smarter, wiser decisions so, like you said, we can grow a generation wealth. You know, if something happened, we have a place for go and jump a little bit Be look at that.
Speaker 2:Instead of always having to be paying all of this money out of pocket to stay at a hotel, you and your family can rotate and decide to okay, I normally go in December for vacation with my family. Okay, I won't be taking it for two weeks in December. That's money save. And in the times when you are not there, you can be using it for long term, medium term or short term rental. And so, immediately One, you're saving money by now having to rent somewhere when you come to Jamaica each and every time. But two, in the times when all of y'all in foreign or wherever you are, it's an investment property that's taking care of itself. So if there's a mortgage on it, it's paying for its mortgage and you probably get another little extra extra in your pocket too. So it's all about building the generational wealth with us. It's all about building the wealth. It's it's living that best life that you can live.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Thank you so much for just being a wealth of information. You know, and I'm sure by the time this episode air I'm sure people's gonna ask me a bunch more question. I mean, I'm excited for my country. I would be more excited if there was place a billa mabe, because you already know, say, I've pre pre signed up, ruth, like pre pre. Once you find it from a day. Yes, I'm a baby Are the environment.
Speaker 2:Saint and is right there.
Speaker 1:No too far, let me not tell you like literally, my experience was I live here, so all missy the airport five minutes, marie Jovanie, like literally right, so we just let us spoil them with it. But I will, we will consider, you know, okay, the options again. Okay, so I have a challenge, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yes. So the challenge is Finding that perfectly located, latin Montego Bay. Are they the old skirts you know?
Speaker 1:like old skirts, yeah like men and none like we're going Greenwood pass. I am sure all greenwood that side yes, and then we can't. We can't go down a little bit too loosey, because I used to spend a lot of time.
Speaker 2:We're gonna look afar, but you know the same James, oh yes. So what? What I'm hearing and your viewers are hearing you say Mm-hmm, is that when proven properties comes with a St James development, kerry is my first purchase. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Viewers.
Speaker 1:First, you've heard it here first listen.
Speaker 1:This is what we're family talking about. So you heard it here first. No, if I love it, but about it Because it is a real thing that we've just been discussing over the years there. There are other properties that are were already in Moby that we were considering but to just never really quite work out for the time. So we don't want to lose that opportunity. My husband and I, as our you know Place of birth, we went to school, high school, all of this we would also want to have that as part of our birthright as Jamaicans to be able to say we own property in Jamaica Outside of what grandma did with a like like oars, it's oars, not, I mean family heirlooms are fine, but you understand, like it's yeah, it's different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, when you sign that transfer and that title and you get it and it's yours, it's yes, it's a moment yeah, it is, and a moment I have had. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you, thank you. So why don't you tell the community where they could find, prove and follow you, keep up with what's going on and, if they have any interest in anything that you're doing, how to be in touch with you?
Speaker 2:So our website is ProvenPropertiesLTDcom and on all socials except Facebook we are proven properties, Just proven properties that are Instagram, LinkedIn we're not on TikTok yet and on Facebook we're proven properties LTD as well, so they can reach out there and they can send me an DM. I will definitely respond and we can get the conversation going to make proven properties your next best investment.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Thank you, ruth. Thank you no, seriously, outside of you know, not necessarily pushing proven as a provider. The most important thing was the information, because people need information to make better decisions, right? So even if they don't go with proven, then hear what you say and take this information and ask the next person if rate it. And if they're not answering already, you know right.
Speaker 2:That's true. Listen, we understand that our price point may be aspirational for some people, and that's fine, because people need well, the desire to grow towards something. Aspirational. Wealth is something that we believe in, that we believe should be considered, and so if you know the process, you know how to get there. So you may not be able to buy the development today or you may not be able to buy into the one next year, but you know, you never know three years from now, because you're focused and you know.
Speaker 2:All right, I want to be a part of the proven family. I know what it takes. I know that in Jamaica, the barriers to entry are very small. I go get my TRN. I can apply for that online. You know whenever I touch that but the barriers for purchasing property in Jamaica are so limited. All you need is a TRN, and that you can apply for online and get it in a day. In other countries, you know that there's layers and layers and layers of requirements, and so we're excited that in Jamaica it's a very simple process and that's why we've been able to capitalize on the diaspora and the international market and it's not I don't want to say capitalize like it's a bad thing because we're giving them a product that they truly desire.
Speaker 2:And I can tell you, kerry, like nothing makes me happier than handing somebody their keys.
Speaker 2:And they carried a grandmother and their mother and their cousin, and they carried everybody on the day of handover.
Speaker 2:And especially when it's their first, it's a moment, it's a moment of being so extremely proud. And especially when they're from the diaspora, they may not even own a home in Florida or New Jersey or Atlanta or wherever they are, but to own somewhere in Jamaica to them is the epitome of their success in home ownership. And when they get the key they invite everybody. I mean, there's one bedroom apartment with 20 people, but it's fine because you know what the joy and the happiness and the pride, and grandma come from country and everybody is there and it's just something to be said about wanting to invest in your own country, wanting to own a piece of just your as you said it right, it's your birthright, it feels like it's your birthright. And so to your audience, who are particularly based outside of Jamaica, it's always so happy. I mean, I'm happy when I give everybody the key, but when them come from foreign and they care to hold that a family come. It's just so amazing, honestly.
Speaker 1:I can imagine and I want to feel that same excitement too. Hey, no, I mean we've talked about this. When I said we talked about this, we've talked about this. My uncles, my brothers, we've talked about this. So even in the talking about it, we already know what it means and what we want to feel. So I hope everybody enjoyed this episode and they have some information as a starting point and conversations can continue. And in everything that we see, we ask questions, we investigate and thank you for indulging me and even asking questions without outside of your purview at proven. I found that was helpful because these are legitimate concerns that we have as diaspora members, because, if it's one thing, jamaica has a reputation for having diaspora members that very well concerned about what they want in Jamaica, we well concerned. So thank you so much, ruth, for being on the podcast. I'm sure we'll have more conversations and, as I love to say at the end of every episode, walk good.