Carry On Friends: The Caribbean American Experience
Carry On Friends has an unmistakable Caribbean-American essence. Hosted by the dynamic and engaging Kerry-Ann Reid-Brown, the podcast takes listeners on a global journey, deeply rooted in Caribbean culture. It serves as a melting pot of inspiring stories, light-hearted anecdotes, and stimulating perspectives that provoke thought and initiate conversations.
The podcast invites guests who enrich the narrative with their unique experiences and insights into Caribbean culture and identity. With an array of topics covered - from lifestyle and wellness to travel, entertainment, career, and entrepreneurship - it encapsulates the diverse facets of the Caribbean American experience. Catering to an international audience, Carry On Friends effectively bridges cultural gaps, uniting listeners under a shared love and appreciation for Caribbean culture.
Carry On Friends: The Caribbean American Experience
(Throwback) Caribbean American Women Navigating Workplace Stereotypes and Cultural Expression
In this episode we discuss the stereotypes that Caribbean American women face in the workplace. Join us as we kick off with Deanna, a vibrant soca music party blogger, who dives into her experiences of how her Guyanese heritage often becomes a central topic at work. Contrastingly, Alysia, our returning guest, shares her decision to keep her West Indian background private in her predominantly white industry to avoid being exoticized. Together, we unravel how upbringing shapes the decision to share cultural identities, the pressures to conform, and the complex balance between personal and professional lives.
What do assumptions like "All Caribbean people are Jamaican" or "Caribbean women work slowly" reveal about workplace misconceptions? Through personal anecdotes and real-life experiences, we dissect these biases and the distinct perceptions faced by Caribbean-born individuals versus American-born individuals of Caribbean descent. Alysia sheds light on the different challenges each group encounters, emphasizing the importance of maintaining professional integrity while navigating these preconceptions. This episode is packed with insights on how cultural diversity influences workplace dynamics and the subtle ways Caribbean colleagues communicate and bond over shared heritage.
Whether you're a freelancer or navigating corporate America, embracing and expressing your cultural identity is crucial. We explore the importance of sharing traditions, fostering understanding among colleagues, and dealing with microaggressions. Hear practical advice for young Caribbean professionals on integrating their cultural heritage into their careers without compromising their true selves. From attending cultural events to explaining traditional meals, we highlight the value of open dialogue and the impact of being proud of one's roots. This conversation is essential for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of cultural identity in the workplace while staying true to who they are.
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A Breadfruit Media Production
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Carry.
Speaker 1:On Friends the Caribbean American podcast. I am Carrie-Anne and I have two guests with me today, alicia and Deanna, and I'll let them introduce themselves in a second. But we are going to talk about workplace shenanigans and we're going to talk about misconceptions about the Caribbean American woman in the workplace. So let's throw it to Alisa. Alisa, tell the people. Alisa is not a stranger to the show this is her third appearance, but still so. Let me just swing it to the newbie, Deanna. Deanna, introduce yourself to the audience.
Speaker 3:So hello, my name is Deanna. I'm also known as Dis Chick. I am a silka music party blogger. So my coworkers actually know that I'm a party blogger. So my West Indian-ness comes up a lot in the workplace, especially on a Monday morning when they're asking me what I did over the weekend. So everyone at least in my workplace knows, you know, I'm of Guyanese descent. I do go out a lot on the weekends, I do party, I do go to carnivals, so it's an interesting topic because this comes up a lot for me. So I'm happy to be joining the show for the first time, not a veteran like Alicia.
Speaker 1:That's all right, we'll make you a vet down the road, alicia.
Speaker 2:Hey, thank you for having me on again. I love coming to visit you guys. Hey guys, my name is Alicia. I am also known as Alicia Simone. My blog is Rewind and Come Again, where I talk about Caribbean, american Caribbean diaspora culture, and I'm happy to join in. My experience is a little different from Deanna's. Most people in my workplace do not know I am of West Asian heritage until some event or some subject brings it up. And then, yeah, the conversation after that and the attitudes after that are really interesting once people find out, so really excited to talk about this. I think this is a topic most people don't really consider discussing. It's just something you live with and work with, and so I'm excited to delve in more into it.
Speaker 1:All right. So, alisa, why haven't you told, or why don't people at your job know that you're Western? Is that a conscious decision or it's it just never came up? You don't think that's a necessary thing to lead with?
Speaker 2:I think it's a. I think it's a conscious decision. The way I was raised, my mother was very when you're in school or you're at work, you speak properly, you speak the Queen's English, and you behave a certain way and you don't, and people can see you're Black, that's enough. I mean, she didn't say these things outright, but in just the way she grew me it was, it just became known that you don't one. You don't need to give it too much personal information and then cultural information is not necessary unless it's really necessary to the task at hand. You don't share that because you'll only, probably will only be a problem for you or give you difficulties down the road or or put eyes on you that are not necessary. So I never really, I don't even really think about it. I just, you know, work.
Speaker 2:Alicia is very American, very jolly, and, and unless something comes up where recently I've got some vacation plan, I'm going to Guyana in May, and so I had to put in for that time and it was, you know, a full two weeks, and so, oh, my God, where are you going for two weeks. And then I'm like, oh geez, here we go and I'm like, well, I'm going on vacation Really when I'm going to South America, south America, oh my God. What's going on down there? Well, my family's from Guyana, guyana, oh my God.
Speaker 2:And it makes me uncomfortable to discuss because I feel like I become an exotic object because I work in a predominantly white industry. Exotic object because I work in a predominantly white industry. Then I become a subject of people want to ask all these, tell me more about it, and is it like Jamaica and white beaches? And and then I don't want to explain all that. I don't want to be a cultural, I don't want to be national, geographic, at the, at the, at the office. So I kind of leave it alone, unless it really is necessary to discuss.
Speaker 1:I got you. I got you. You know I'm, I'm, I'm sort of in between. But, like early in my career, I literally just went to work. I walked in and I know major hype really exaggerates it, but none of us walks in, especially me, the Jamaican in the room, and I was like, oh, many of them carry me out of Jamaica and I'm beat chest, I don't do that, none of us do that.
Speaker 1:And as you know, like Alicia says, you know old school because our parents came to the US in a time where it was literally you blend in, you don't try to make anyone hear any hint of an accent. So I get that. You know going to work. You know growing up we were taught to compartmentalize. So and I'm still having that struggle with certain people because I think now in a modern day and millennials, you know everything is kind of blurred and blended. You know, growing up, you know I grew up in Jamaica and then I came here. Everything was you had work friends, you had school friends, you had church friends and you know none of them really mixed unless they lived in your community or you lived in the same church. So uh, went to the same church so you could live in the same community, go to the same school, go to the same church or you know a mixture of them, but otherwise there was just no blending.
Speaker 1:So I kind of took that same approach here and where I came from never really came up on like on, like you, alicia. Something happens, you know and to be honest you don't want it. You know and to be honest you don't want it, and I mean it's a reality. If it comes up that I'm Jamaican and you hear it in my voice, then I'm upset and then that's just not a bad situation to be, in.
Speaker 1:When the accent comes out at work, it's typically when you know you're upset. So that's my experience with that, deanna. You know your co-workers are all in it, and so how did that come about this conversation that they knew? You know that you are a party blogger, you're Guyanese. How did that conversation happen?
Speaker 3:You know what it's so interesting? Because I actually have a different perception. I actually do want to educate, you know, my coworkers, because sometimes and I've been in situations where people have said very ignorant things and you know, without malice, they just really didn't know. Especially when I say Guyana and they immediately assume Ghana and that becomes the conversation. And then when I say I'm a West Indian and they're like oh, you're Jamaican. No, I really think geography needs to be stressed in school. But I actually take that on myself to really start talking to them about West Indianness and Caribbean Americans and just experience, but music, culture, food. I feel like it's important for me to to educate them so they they don't say those stupid things to me.
Speaker 3:Um, my parents made it so that it was. It's a part of who I am and so I. I actually don't really compartmentalize. Um, blogging has, of course, just emphasize that, because I want people to know about all the festivities and the music and the culture. But it's also I take pride in that, and so I want to share that.
Speaker 3:I want to tell people, and so I've actually met people at work who are like oh yeah, I have a friend who's Guyanese and she never tells me anything about it. Or I have a friend who's Trinidadian, and what's the food like? And so they end up actually asking me questions because they want to know, but they're afraid to ask. Right, they don't want to come off sounding ignorant, they don't want to impose themselves. There's a lot of guilt with saying things to your coworkers. You're not sure how people are going to take it, you don't want to offend. So I think for me I create something like a safe space. You can ask me those questions, because I don't want you to go to the next person and say something ignorant.
Speaker 1:so let's talk about it sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, you know. You know what I noticed? All three of us are kind of talking like are we the only West Indian in the workplace? Is that, like, true for you or both of you?
Speaker 2:no, not at all. It's a Trini girl at my job, so the trini girl, don't let anybody know, she's trini no, it just uh, no when it comes up.
Speaker 2:You know what happens every day. Also, I noticed there's a mailroom guy who's jamaican and he comes up by and that's when we like both turn on because he'll come in and we're all like, hey, did you do? You know where the spreadsheet is and when is the next meeting? And then he'll come by and he's like hey, girl, what's going on? And then we immediately like hey, what's going on? And she, I think, is more like Deanna, where she's got a more like I don't care, this is me, even though in her daily you can't tell because she doesn't have an accent. Like I don't care, this is me, even though in her daily you can't tell because she doesn't have an accent. Um, you can't really tell, but she immediately turns on when he starts.
Speaker 2:We start, all three of us start talking and she doesn't care what people think. She, you know she's the person who doesn't care what people think. So we live, we work in an open environment, so anything, anytime you open your mouth, everyone can hear you. Yeah, so, yeah. So everyone's head starts to turn when we talk. And this may be my own personal hang up that I need to get over more than thinking about it now. I she immediately starts when someone going on and starts talking, and I do the same. But then I'm I'm conscious of people perking up and like, oh, I never heard them talk like this before. What does that word mean? I can see it and I feel, feel self-conscious and I I realized I started to almost whisper and, or you know, try to move us into another location, so we're not so close to people. So I think that's something I need to think about.
Speaker 1:Is that that self-consciousness is probably you know your mom and you know what she's told you like in the back of your mind, because for them it was really very, very serious. There's not one person in your mom's generation you know that came up and they really it was. They've had repercussions about being too West Indian and you know so. So there's some history there and because she's drilled it into you so much, you are almost like this thing, like I don't want people to know and call too much attention to yourself. So that's probably what it is, but something to explore further. Deanna, how about you? Are there other West Indians on the job?
Speaker 3:Yes, they are, and you know they also are of the mindset of. You know I'll speak to other West Indians and tell them about. You know I'm going home for carnival or you know I'm visiting family or something is happening. But they don't really share that in the workplace because it's not really seen as professional. And of course you don't want people who are in your workspace to be in your life space, right? You don't want them to know too much about what you do when you leave at five o'clock. So I respect that. I definitely respect that. I'm the complete opposite.
Speaker 3:I let people know. Yeah, I have to leave because I have to catch a flight to Toronto for Caravana. Yeah, I have to go because I'm doing this thing or I'm heading to this event. So for me it's very different, but I definitely do connect with. There's a Guyanese woman, there's a Trinidadian woman, there are two Jamaican men and we have that kind of like Alicia, that little in crowd where you speak a certain way. But for me, I feel, because I was not born in Guyana, when I tried to put on a Guyanese accent I don't feel authentic at all.
Speaker 2:I feel like.
Speaker 3:I am faking this completely. I don't feel authentic at all. I feel like I am faking this completely. So I don't do it like that. But I definitely realize, you know, we relax a little bit more, we speak a little bit more openly because you feel like these people can understand when you have family obligations or you have things that you need to do, or you feel like you know, going down the road and getting some jerk chicken or getting some curry why are there no curry spots in Midtown, Like we have those kinds of conversations and we share. But I definitely get why people, you know, create that barrier between their personal space and their workspace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely create that barrier. I remember I worked in the legal industry for a long time and I remember, you know, I was one of one of the partners or the attorneys that I worked closely with.
Speaker 1:She was you know, we were having a conversation and it goes back to the compartmentalization. So I was like man, I don't have any clothes or something. And I said, oh, but she said you just bought clothes the other day. You went shopping. I'm like no, those are going out clothes. I'm like it's, it's a West Indian thing. It's go. You know, you don't wear the clothes that you buy for party to work. You just don't do that. And and then she's how it even came up that I'm West Indian. She was like, oh, you know, I went to a Jamaican shop and the right I bought the rice and the beans and there's a distinct taste. I'm like it's the coconuts. She's like how do you know that I'm Jamaican? So it's like having those, like you know, like those opportunities. And that only came out because working in the law firm there are a lot of late nights, so it's kind of one-on-one.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 1:I, I, I felt comfortable having this conversation with her because you know, she was a lot like me. She kept to herself, there was no, you know, crossing over and like each other's personal space and personal life. But for the most part I just kind of navigate and if people are Jamaican, I don't kind of say anything or hear them talking, I just listen. Because, you know, honestly, I want to hear somebody's going to say something about me in Patua and don't say anything. Know, if I keep talking the queen's english and nobody is none the wiser because I can code switch better than anybody. So, you know, if I keep quiet, I want to hear if somebody goes to that girl over there. So, like, I want to hear if I'm gonna talk about me, um, but um, I think there was one job that I went to that there was so many West Indians, particularly Guyanese.
Speaker 1:It was just like I've never been at a job where there was so. And then, you know, it was to the point where you know it would walk down the hallway and everybody was like walk on. Everybody's like, yeah, you know, and everybody's like like literally Trinis, guyanese, haitians, you know, bajans. I was like I've never seen like so many in one place Did you like that.
Speaker 2:That must feel so like comfortable, or maybe not, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Um, we worked in different departments, so it was. It made it a little. It was different because you know you didn't always interact. So the only times we really did interact because if someone's in the billing department and you're the only person, you'll walk past yes, I walk on and I'm saying oh, and it'll keep working but like when they had like the monthly birthday celebrations or something like this, everybody's like hey, or usually like when something has happened.
Speaker 1:So, um, particularly when there was like track and field events, some sporting events, that's kind of where the big conversations happened. Otherwise we kind of dispersed and kind of went about our business because at the same time, like Deanna said, it's not quite professional and we're aware of that, but we do turn on and light up when we are around each other, especially if something significant is happening in the community or has happened in the community. Especially if something significant is happening in the community or has happened in the community, you know somebody walk up like yo, you're here, about so-and-so, it's like. So it was, it was cool. But we still kind of knew when to kind of you know if. If you know back away, if you know you're around your team, you're kind of do the West Indian communication, your points with the lip. You know the head nod, you watch the eye and if you watch the eye you see the Hannah move a little bit the finger, like that type of thing. So I did enjoy that.
Speaker 2:But where where.
Speaker 1:I currently work, I'm the I'm the only Jamaican, so and the West Indian. So we kind of talked about let's get into like misconceptions are pretty much stereotypes, right? Deanna kind of mentioned one the minute. She said she's West Indian or from the Caribbean. Default Jamaican, right. So that's like a misconception that people have about every West Indian or Caribbean person. They're from Jamaica and that's a whole different conversation as to why people do that and that probably could take up this call. But what do you feel? I'll throw it to you, alicia what do you feel is a misconception that people have when they find out that you're West Indian, caribbean we use that term interchangeably for the audience when they find out that you're a West Indian or Caribbean woman?
Speaker 2:You know one thing that I think it kind of depends, and this is why I brought up, before we got on air, I brought up that I think there is a difference between if you walk into the workplace and present as someone who was born and raised in the Caribbean versus an American of Caribbean descent, because from what I've seen from my experience, versus my friends who are raised in the Caribbean and come here and work as older adults, I feel like they have a harder time. They are perceived as not initially at least. They don't know, they won't understand what proper business protocols are, proper business standards. American business standards are the standard, the industry standard. Then they clearly, wherever they came from, they probably don't do it the way we do it and the way they do it is probably subpar.
Speaker 2:So from the stories I've heard, I feel like immigrants in general, caribbean immigrants in particular, are initially perceived as well. We're going to have to get you up to pace because however you did it in your home island probably isn't the correct way or the industry standard way. And then they're. You know, they quickly learn. Just because I have an accent and was born somewhere else doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing, but I think that's an initial reaction as opposed to, like my experience as someone of Caribbean descent. I don't present initially as Caribbean. You wouldn't guess that just from your initial interaction with me I wouldn't get that same preconceived notion.
Speaker 1:How about you, Deanna?
Speaker 3:that same preconceived notion. How about you, deanna? For me, it's usually and I've seen this with other people who definitely have the accent, or it's very clear that they have either just come to the country or they've been here a very short period of time. There's this misconception that they're going to take forever to get something done, and I've heard people say that like, oh, if you give it to her, you know it's going to take an extra, however many days, you know, but she's from the Caribbean where everything is slower. Wow, and it wasn't true. She just got to the job.
Speaker 3:Somebody actually said that Someone actually said that. Of course it's in, you know know, the copy room, so other people can't hear. And again, since I also, like alicia, don't really present as west indian I don't have an accent or anything they felt comfortable saying this in front of me and it was based on nothing at all. She had just gotten to the job. But they're like, oh, you know how it is in the islands, they like to take their time with things. So just make sure you stress to her that we need this quickly. And it was so rude and of course I had to speak on it. Um, but it was just immediately. That was the reaction. She's from the Caribbean, she's going to take a long time to do something because apparently time is is not part of her. You know she's, it's just not going to be a priority for her. She likes to do things a little bit slower. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting. So, um a misconception, inferiority in terms of you know, um work, um deliverables and speed, you know, like it's okay. Um, all right, so I have one for you. That happened recently. Um, I don't remember how it even came up that I'm jamaican I don't remember, but it came up and um person's like I don't like jamaicans. I went to jamaica and they were all mean and blah, blah blah and I'm like, okay, you know, that's their experience.
Speaker 1:I can't say no one was mean to you because, let's face it Everybody talks about the Caribbean woman in the Jamaican store shop restaurant who refused to give me extra gravy. So you know, let's be real, there are some mean people out there. And then they asked me if I've ever smoked weed and I was like nope never I was like no.
Speaker 3:How are you?
Speaker 1:Jamaican and never smoked weed. I'm like. I'm like, uh, I don't know like, why would you assume that everybody in jamaica smokes weed? Because you guys have it like it's, you know, I was just like all right, and they were like and so this other person was like never. I'm like never.
Speaker 1:I don't have to lie, it's like they didn't believe you I'm looking like no, my mom, and nobody's looking over my shoulder. I've never smoked weed, it's just so it's. It's. It's like why would you just default to that? You know, I mean, I, if, if, I mean if you're a rastafarian, it's like okay, you know, they assume, but I'm like why would you? Assume that and um it was. I didn't even think I needed to. You know, I kind of said, well, would you? Would you? If someone said they were from columbia, would you automatically assume that they've had experience with cocaine?
Speaker 1:you, you know it's, it's like it's, it's, it was. It was just a weird and and we were in a, a, a place where there was a going away party for someone, and I was just like, all right, you know, maybe they had a little too much to drink, because I didn't feel like getting into it, but you know I had that.
Speaker 1:So, but specifically though, as a Caribbean woman, like what are some? You know, stereotypes, Like, I think, for me, um, I remember at an old job, you know, like, as you know, we, we tend to have that reputation. Like some of us, we don't smile with you. I mean I don't, I'm not smiling all the time and, quite frankly, if I look like I have a serious face which I'm told I have most of the time it has nothing to do with you. They tend to be a little bit more serious and the American workplace tends to value, you know, more social, social ability as opposed to you know this, you know this arm's length approach that we have, which is kind of what we were brought up on.
Speaker 1:So I think that's particular something to me that I've experienced, that I'm a mean Jamaican woman. I'm like I'm not mean. I just don't have anything to say to you. If I need to speak to you, I'll speak to you, and if I'm upset with you, you're going to know that I'm upset with you. But it's part of the American cultural workplace, as opposed to how we were brought up. What are other misconceptions you've had, deanna? Were you partying? I'm sure they have a lot of.
Speaker 2:I can't believe you live that life and they even know it Like I wouldn't. I would not have patience for anybody's mouth on Monday morning.
Speaker 3:Right, I feel like my. My weekend like, though, lets me deal with all of the things I have to deal with throughout the week, because I mean you guys have seen some of my posts that there are so many, so many random issues that I have being a woman in the workplace, being a black woman in the workplace, being a Caribbean woman in the workplace in the workplace, being a black woman in the workplace, being a Caribbean woman in the workplace, and there's so much that you almost have to explain yourself before you can even just be yourself there. So there's definitely, you know, carrie and I hear you with the social aspect, and I've seen it actually hurt other people, other Caribbean women, because they're not, you know, going into the kitchen and it's somebody's birthday, and blah, blah, blah, and, of course, I mean even myself. I don't have a lot of patience for that. Like I want to. I want to get back to work. I don't really need to stay here and celebrate Carol's birthday for an hour, um, but it tends to hurt, hurt us, because it's seen as oh, you're antisocial, you don't want to participate, you're not a team player, when the truth is, we've we've been taught that we just you'll be promoted on your merit and your work ethic and that's not really the case anymore. People want personality, they want to be able to socialize, they want to be able to hang out with you, because the further up you get in the lap in the um, the corporation, they're going to have to interact with you more often. So they're looking for those personal connections and we're not really taught to expose that side of us. So that's part of the reason why I'm very conscious about letting people know what I do outside of work.
Speaker 3:And I've had, you know, higher ups come to me and oh, how was your weekend? They're just waiting for the scoop. So what'd you do? Where'd you go? What was this party? What was that? So it actually can help to be a little bit more social. Not that you need to tell them everything about your business, but it can help to be a little bit more social and a little bit more open. And it really goes against how we're taught to behave in a workplace. But yeah, I see it constantly with that. But what I usually get is you know, carrie Ann, you don't have locks, I have locks. So of course I'm the weed person. They come to me and ask me where they can get it or do I know?
Speaker 3:anyone Exactly, and when I'm like I have no connection for you. I don't smoke weed. I don't know anybody who can get you weed. I'm sorry, you almost see the microaggression like wait, but you're West Indian and you have locks.
Speaker 2:What do?
Speaker 3:you mean, you're my weed connection, you're my go-to. So definitely having to explain that Having locks in the workplace is also a different challenge. It's not so much a barrier anymore for getting promoted or getting hired, but it definitely does come with its own set of misconceptions, and especially your West Indian woman with locks there's there's a lot that they assume immediately.
Speaker 1:You know, um, deanna, what you said about the the whole you know, meritocracy or view. That's the reason why I started Carry On Friends, because I that in 2013, I was in a place where this one attorney she's a fresh associate and you know she's there, you know she's social with the paralegals and I'm their manager. And you know, basically, because you know I wasn't really, you know, I'm about work, I'm not going to laugh with you and kiki and all that good stuff. And she encouraged some of those paralegals to be insubordinate and she went around telling out of my mouth. So I know, whatever I tell you, I tell you for your professional interest, best interest and for my best interest, because I was hired to do this job and it was at that point.
Speaker 1:There was a turning point, because you know, I'm not a rainmaker and I felt like the actions there eventually led to me losing that job because it was them against me. It was me, you know, not playing their game, it was me not laughing. I'm like I really I really don't, I really don't care what you do, especially since I knew that she was like one of those who was like gunning for me to lose my job. That's when she got the screw face and the serious face.
Speaker 1:And that's when she was like gunning for me to lose my job, that's when she got the screw face and the serious face and that's when she was like, you see, and I and I and I reported it a couple of times, but those are like some issues and that's essentially why I started this platform is like you got to play their game, and the challenge for us is like we don't want to play their game, like we will, will tell you. And this is why those major hype skits are really funny, because we really want to tell you what he said, but we know we can't tell you what he's saying. You know, you know we can't look at you. You know, you know we I mean, some people do it because I've, I've heard stories of people who worked with other west indians and the those stories of those west indians going off is like oh wow, he did that man, but you know in my work.
Speaker 1:Did he have to die later? So I mean, but that is a serious issue. I've been to like I remember we were at like a Caribbean American Heritage Day panel and you know people said that they got fired. People are getting fired because this adjustment to how we socialize. So you know, especially so now that people know you're west indian you've been spoken to a couple times you're a black woman, you're a minority, you have all these issues and so you know you not laughing with the office and going out every time the office has drinks. I'm not a drinker and I tell them that. And when we go out, I drink Shirley Temples and they're like what I'm like? Listen, I'm here, I'm here.
Speaker 2:And I like.
Speaker 1:Shirley Temples, and that's it. You know, it's almost like you need to conform and do things the way they do and we are like I want to go home, and things the way they do and we are like I want to go home and I have like people at home and I'm tired. But it's people take it really personal?
Speaker 2:yes, they do. Yeah, take it when you don't um take part in office culture, and that took a long time for me to get used to, um. But and as a West Indian woman, I still am on my p's and q's when I do take part in office culture. So, like at my office on Thursdays, they have like a cafe in the building and we have a happy hour after at five, like five to seven, and at first I would never go. And they were like, at least you're going upstairs. I'm like I'm good, I'm just going to finish this up and go home.
Speaker 2:And then the Trini girl actually came to me and was like why you don't ever go upstairs? And I'm like, well, I don't, these are my friends, I'm here for some money. Why would I laugh and joke with these folks over wine or whatever? And she's the one who was like, listen, you need to come upstairs every now and then. You don't have to come every Thursday, but you need to come, say, for 20 minutes, drink a little half a glass, giggle and laugh at their jokes and then you can go home.
Speaker 2:But, trust me, people are watching you do good work, but this is part of it. And I was like okay, and so I started doing that. But even while I'm up there, I still feel like, you know, I need to be on my guard. You know I'll drink half a glass, I'll laugh and I joke, but I'm still, like you know, on my guard. But I do have to take part and that's something that's really hard. Um, I think for for west indians to to get, get and get in gear with yeah, because we were taught, like you know.
Speaker 1:I mean I like fiat and you know, it's this thing, but um all right. So so far, let's recap what the misconceptions are.
Speaker 1:She has friends, but we're cultured not to have friends at work. We love our job and we work hard, but our personality will shine only in the right environment, and usually that's a challenge. If we don't talk, it's for a lot of reasons. It's not because we hate you that could be it but it's usually not so. The other thing is success and hard work is cultured into our every fiber. Now, this I want to touch on, because success and hard work goes two different ways, right? So I've had the benefit of really getting far in my career because people recognize that I worked very hard and they were like all right, let's go hook. They hook their arm in mine and they like pull me along. But some other people, boy, they see that hard work and they start competing with you.
Speaker 1:And then that's when all the other things that we talk about coming to place, the, the, the sabotage and, you know, going behind people's back, and when that happens the true culture of like, that's when more the aggression comes out from a west indian perspective. So it kind of exacerbates the problem. I don't know what. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:I think that's interesting. Um, I think, as caribbean women, we really don't play the politics at work yeah, we don't, um, and you know I think we need to, we definitely need to.
Speaker 3:We're missing out. That's part of corporate life, right? You have to play the game, you have to play the politics. And you know we really are taught that just work hard and you'll succeed. Just keep working hard. If you didn't get that promotion, it's because you didn't work hard enough. So we work harder and we don't realize it could be politics, it's, it could be right and we don't engage in that and I think we, we definitely are missing out. I did.
Speaker 3:it's a disservice to us I didn't right now I do yeah, because and it doesn't always have to be like backstabbing- it's just you have to be aware of who's making certain moves, the power players, who's cozying up with different people. Exactly, really, it's a game of survivor, yeah, and we don't play the game. We are just conditioned to work hard and keep working hard and that will equal success. And that's not really true anymore.
Speaker 1:Yes and um so uh, we. I did a workshop called um your Caribbean competitive advantage and one of the things that I keep saying we cannot bring soccer rules to an NFL game.
Speaker 1:You know, we have whatever rules they have there, we have to play in their rules, we have to play those positions and, like you said, no, we don't have to lie and backstab, but we know that every morning. You know, you know that, you know it's part of the culture there to nod and you know yak it up a little bit and do you kind of have to do that. You got to observe who are the power players, who who's what, who's this, and you know. One of the other things that I had to learn was like saying, hey, I did this, I did a good job, like culturally, and most immigrants are not comfortable kind of tooting their horn about what they've done and that has killed us in so many ways, and I have to learn to kind of start, you know, kind of saying hey I did this job and it feels weird, kind of saying look at me, I did a good job.
Speaker 1:But essentially you kind of have to do that because if you don't say it, someone else is going to take that credit. So I had to learn that and it's still kind of hard to do that. Bring that attention to myself because I've been cultured not to bring that attention to myself. Forget that. I'm doing this podcast because clearly that's bringing attention to myself. But you kind of grew up knowing you know be seen and not heard, and you know you kind of take that behavior into the workplace.
Speaker 2:You'll be recognized in time for as long if you work hard, someone will recognize you when and you'll get your credit to do, but to to put your put your hand up and um like at at my job. I'm a long-term freelancer and so now it's all been almost a year and now everyone keeps coming to me like are they gonna going to bring you on full time? What's going on? Why is this taking so long? And one guy in particular was like why don't you go talk to them, Go to HR, go to the head woman and be like I want to be full time, Let them know. And I was like why would I do that? I was like no, I was like if they want me full time, they can offer One. I don't know if I want to be full-time, but if they wanted me they would let me know why would I go and you know, put my, you know, stick my head up, if not necessary, to yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they know what work I'm doing. They see me here, yeah, and he didn't get it. He was like, okay, and, and you know I like war at myself with these types of things because my nature is to, you know, fold into the back when this office culture is so opposite that. So you know that that's something that's been coming up a lot recently. Everyone's like why don't you go talk to them about that? And I'm like, no, leave me alone. Can I bring up one small? It's in regards to everything we've talked about. This is very small and really not that important.
Speaker 2:But something that really irritates me is that you know, I try to save money at times and bring lunch from home. Oh boy, insane is when people, oh, my god, what is that? Is that curry, what? Or, if it's not, if it's not a recognizably west indian dish that every american knows like a curry or something. If it's, I brought leftover pepper pot or something like that and oh, what's that? And everyone's in my bowl and they want to know and they're gonna struggle and I'm like really, really, it's called pepper pot.
Speaker 2:It was made this like can I eat? It's getting cold now, can I eat like those? Those are the, those are the things that that's a small thing, but that's something that's a big thing there's?
Speaker 3:I don't think there's, but I think everybody just went.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you all know what that's like, but do you encourage them like?
Speaker 3:well, maybe not encourage them, but when they do come to you and start asking you, are you open to talk? Or is it more like I don't really want to have to educate you about my food? I just want to sit here and eat in peace, and maybe you're not eating with other people. Even Is it like they're imposing?
Speaker 2:Over time it depends my mood. I can get real standoffish sometimes and want my personal space, but over time I've become a little more open. Um, what most recently happened, which I thought was hilarious, was that, um, you guys know that I'm going to guyana in may for this film festival, and no one really. I just put in I'm taking this vacation. Um, and everyone thought it was just like a family thing. And then we as a department had lunch and this girl was started talking. She's like, yeah, I'm really into film and this and that. And I was, and I was like I must have had something to drink. So I was like, yeah, girl, do you know I'll do this? And I'm having a film workshop in diana. And she's like, oh, wow. And she's like, oh, she's almost ready to book her ticket to come this.
Speaker 1:Let her book her ticket. The film festival needs her participation.
Speaker 2:Right, right but it was shocking. She's this blonde hair, blue-eyed, you know like super becky girl who she's mad, cool, but like I couldn't, I again like warn with myself, like I can't believe I'm having this conversation and now open and then that's so. Now she's asking me even more questions about Diana and I'm sharing all this information with her and I'm like, oh, this is a new level for me. Wow, I don't feel weird.
Speaker 1:It almost seems like you're letting your guard down. Deanna, what would you say to a young Caribbean lineal going into work and you know having to deal with microaggressions and are not used to that?
Speaker 3:into work and you know having to deal with microaggressions and are not used to that. Wow, that's. That's going to be a challenge, because I think it depends so much on how much of your, your cultural heritage is part of your day to day, right? Like, how much of that do you bring to the workplace? Are you comfortable sharing that about yourself? And you don't necessarily need to start off with, hey, I'm, I'm, you know, jamaican, I'm Guyanese, I'm Trinanian, let's all talk about it.
Speaker 3:But it's more of just being open to socializing at all in the workplace, being open to really seeing other people as just just like you. You know, you can feel safe saying things about yourself, encouraging them to have conversations with you, opening yourself up, maybe not being so resistant to their questions, because they just don't know Right, and for so long we haven't said anything Right, like we don't tell them that we're West Indian, we don't say anything about our culture, we don't say anything about our history. So they really have no frame of reference. So they're coming with questions. But I do think it's important to to accept it as part of who you are.
Speaker 3:Right, if you're a woman, you're a woman. You can't hide that when you go into the workplace and you accept that things are going to happen to you or you know you're going to get a certain reaction because of it. It's the same as when you're West Indian you know things are going to happen, things are going to arise because of it and just being comfortable in yourself, knowing that this is part of who you are, these are the challenges you're going to face and being ready to to engage with people and have those discussions. But as far as the socializing, actually, I actually do have someone who came to Carabana with me and was a coworker and had never heard of the carnival at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's a Taiwanese, american. Um, she saw what I was doing with the blog. She was very interested and she came and played a mass. And now every year I'm not kidding every year when are we going?
Speaker 2:when are we going to Caravana? When are we going to Toronto?
Speaker 3:Um. So you'd be surprised how much that just exposing yourself like that can actually help you build friendships, can actually get more acceptance. People start understanding. Um, I know another co-worker who she actually had to go away for bereavement is very short in my company and she had to go for a while because she was staying for the nine nights that you know know the nine nights are really. Yeah, it's well, she's 90, as we also do, oh you guys do nine nights too, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So she was trying to figure out how do I explain to them that I need leave for this whole period of time, and she was really struggling with. Do I even tell them why? And do I have to explain it? And I'm like you. You, this is part of who you are. You have to tell them because you need this time and they need to know that. So things like that, where you just kind of have to be like this is part of who I am Right and you have to engage with people and you have to let people know about it, because you also want to be comfortable to do things for yourself as well. So I would, I would say, just be more open. It's not a crutch, it's not a bad thing to be West Indian. So be proud of it and let people know All right.
Speaker 1:So before I go back to Alicia, since you brought it up, deanna, let's just you know, for whoever is listening who may not be familiar. You know kind of explain what the nine nights are, even though growing up I thought it was nine, as in night. You know, like, how the British use nine nine nights. I'm like what's nine, but it's, it's nine nights and just kind of explain.
Speaker 3:Nine nights, yeah, it's part of, yeah, it's part of the grieving and the funerary traditions in the Caribbean and the West Indies, where you spend this time really grieving the person who's lost. But at the end of the nine nights you celebrate the life because that person is no longer suffering, that person is in a better place. It's a celebration of that person's life and so for quite a few people they do the entire time In the workplace. It's kind of hard to ask for that whole period of time off. Maybe people have to travel on the ninth night, you know, for the ninth night, um, but it's, it's part of the. The grieving is part of the funeral, part of the, the bereavement.
Speaker 1:For west indians, although I don't feel. I feel like they're, you know, for a period of time, I feel like there, you know, for a period of time, I feel like there's party all nine nights, and not just nine nights.
Speaker 3:I mean, we are still West Indian, right, Let me tell you but that's a whole other.
Speaker 1:I think that's like really like a cultural experience, like nothing. I don't we have to talk about how Guyanese do it, but how the Jamaicans do it with the greater and and all this other stuff. So now, alicia, the same question how would you advise someone you know about being themselves, or you know how to kind of navigate the workplace and not dimming their, not necessarily blowing it up? Like you know, Muhammad Ali, the champ is here. You're not announcing the treaty is here, you know but like how do you?
Speaker 3:kind of.
Speaker 2:I actually kind of have these conversations now because my kids are older, they're 18 and 19 and have had summer jobs or internships. So I'm now in the role my mother was in, and so I'm trying to figure out how what I'm going to say and do differently or the same as she did when I started. You know putting my foot in the workplace, so with them it's a little different. They're a little, even more watered down than I am. They're not as overtly and even I'm not that overtly West Indian, but in general, what I tell them is, from what I don't want to tell them, the same exact thing my mother told me Right, which is you know, to become this. You know them to be aware that there can be negative repercussions for being seen as different or other.
Speaker 2:And instead of my thing is I don't teach that you need to stuff your heritage down. You need to stuff your heritage down, but you need to be make smart decisions for how you present and how you interact when it comes to you know, just in general, but also with with being Guyanese in the workplace, and everything is a learning experience. So, however it turns out, it's not the end of the world If you, you know, end up sharing with someone that you know we're going home for a month in the summertime and it turns some weird conversation that somehow backlashes at the workplace. All right, Well, what are we going to take from that? How are we going to learn from that and how are we going to move on?
Speaker 2:The world is not over, the worst thing that's happened. You may have to find another job, but you know that's happened before in life and it's not the end of the world. So these are things I am actually actively trying to figure out how to share with them, and you know how to, how, how they would navigate through this weird space that is American corporate America.
Speaker 1:It is a, it is a weird space. But you know, I, I think I've I've learned, you know I've been burnt enough times by my own, you know, naivete, so to speak, my my being resolute in you know I come here and do a good job and and actually I think, what really kind of made me feel that way. I remember tell a quick story I have beer stories but I remember there was this job and this office manager. I stopped talking to her or interacting with her and I was very honest, because sometimes we're too much on principle. I'm on principle, but we're too much on principle. So the office manager was chatting some people and I felt it was inappropriate as an office manager to be talking about another coworker you know, talking with somebody else telling our business.
Speaker 1:You know like I thought it was inappropriate. When I mean inappropriate, something never burned me so much in my life right. Because as the office manager she had like sensitive, confidential conversations and I knew she was telling somebody else, so I stopped talking to her. I would say good morning or whatever, but I don't laugh at her. I don't laugh at her Because what that tells me now, like if I have a problem, that's HR related, I don't chat to you.
Speaker 2:My business.
Speaker 1:That's how I translated that. So when it came to review time, she told you know the partners that you know I'm being mean to the staff. Again, this mean thing keep coming up because I shut down. Right, I just shut down and in my review it came up that I was mean. So the owner of the company was like well, does she do her work? He's like yes. So the owner of the company was like well, does she do her work? He's like yes, well. So the owner and the partner was like well, all that's matter. But they were older white guys and they're not about the whole social business, they're about you doing your job. So I kind of got away with that.
Speaker 2:But as.
Speaker 1:I moved through other jobs and the bosses were not as older and they were younger. I wouldn't have gotten. I can't get away with oh she's a hard worker you know, and you know it would go. So that was kind of when the reality and you know, maybe the bosses were older but they were kind of transitioning. So the other stakeholders, the other people that had the ear of people who had more influence, you know, were younger so that didn't work out for me. But at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:I still worked hard and it was it. So they can't get you on your hard work. They're going to get you on the interpersonal skills, the social, the social aspects. So you know that's part of the strategy that you know I kind of talk about and these are the conversations that I try to have with you know, when my of talk about and these are the conversations that I try to have with you know, when my daughter was in high school, like the parents, like we kind of have to start having different conversations with our kids because we're not preparing them.
Speaker 1:You know, to deal with what now becomes almost 80% of corporate, how you interact with your coworkers as opposed to the work that you're delivering. That takes such a bigger impact on your job and the longevity of your job. Regardless of what they say, oh, we value work. That's not the experience of people of color or, worse, if you're an immigrant. That is just not always your experience, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:You know. So thank you guys for joining me to have this conversation. I think we talked more, not only about the misconceptions of the Caribbean woman, but the misconceptions of the Caribbean immigrant and period it's, it's. There's no quick solution, there's no easy fix. I think the only thing we could say is just keep having these conversations so, if you're listening, you don't feel like you're the only one that is going through this. To be continued, more conversations. Thank you, alicia and Deanna, for being part of this conversation and, like I like to say at the end of the show, walk good.
